Stephen Downes
Stephen's Web
Blogs, Wikis and Podcasts? What if We're All Wrong?
So here we have another case of 'simply not getting it'. In a nutshell, it's this: "In effect, John Clare has set our members a challenge which, expressed crudely, is: put up or shut up! Show us evidence of transformed teaching and learning -- not anecdotal stuff, but measurable gains and, I would add, examples which are both scaleable and replicable, and which stand the test of time (ie short-term gains are sustained in the long-term)." Sheesh. Why should we respond to a challenge on these terms? Why should we let someone like John Clare set the agenda, set the terms of success? If he wants "measurable gain" he should go out there and produce them himself, not sit there and carp at us for not doing it. While he's at it, why doesn't he calculate the "measurable gain" from friendship, loyalty and trust? What blogging brings for us - and for our readers and students - is all of this, and more, and measuring it is as ridiculous as counting the number of friends you have. Having a personal, self-defined identity and being able to express one's thoughts and feelings might not alter a math test score one iota, but honestly, who cares? Education isn't about improving test results, education is about helping people enjoy richer and happier lives (not 'more productive' lives - that's a measure of value we should discard as empty and worthless). Here's my answer to John Clare (and, incidentally, what I would and do say to students and teachers): if blogging works for you, then do it. If it doesn't, then don't do it, and leave the rest of us alone. Terry Freedman, Information and Communication Technology in Education, March 5, 2006 11:11 a.m.. [Link] [Tags: Web Logs, Gaming] [Previous][Next]Comments
Re: Blogs, Wikis and Podcasts? What if We're All Wrong?
Yes, John Clare would appear to have been educated within the very narrow, rigidly defined, 'productive' spectrum so typical of the closed mindset that is the ultimate definition of poverty.
Perhaps he doesn't understand that idea exchange/shared perception is the basis of commonwealth that raises the societal psychological/intellectual norms to the point of personal and intrapersonal appreciation that banishes the kind of negative influence that inhibits 'test results', among many other things.
Please don't tell me he's a teacher, entrusted with the future viewpoint of the next generation of planetary caretakers.
That would be my ultimate definition of a horror movie. [Comment]
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Re: Blogs, Wikis and Podcasts? What if We're All Wrong?
Stephen;
First, let me say that I've been a loyal rss reader for a while now, and think that you really pull together some very valuable resources and commentary. I also think that our views about education, social learning, and loosely-connected blogs/wiki/etc... tools are probably similar.
However, I'm not sure that your response isn't taking too much of a hard line against Mr. Clare. I don't know anything more than the article that you linked to, but from that, the idea that we should be able to show some sort of rigorously-tested results seems reasonable. I say that this is reasonable because we act as advocates - promoting the usage of this kind of technology. Besides, if it has an impact, why shouldn't we try to show it? By applying rigorous standards, we should be able to understand better exactly what is changing, how much, and the benefit to the various parties involved.
In any case, thanks for putting together your resources, and I look forward to reading more in the future.
Nathan Garrett
blogging as garrettn on elgg.net [Comment]
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Re: Blogs, Wikis and Podcasts? What if We're All Wrong?
Stephen -
Your blog obviously does a great educational service to the edu community, and so I can understand taking the view that guys like Clare should take a leap. It was posed as in an unfriendly way so why should it get a friendly response? But I believe similar expressions of skepticism are coming from within the educational technology community and so if the question were framed a little differently, perhaps you'd choose to give a different answer.
I think the questions should be put something like this. Restricting attention to classroom teaching and learning only (it can be an online classroom but it must be formal instruction in this sense) when and where does having the students keep blogs make sense? When and where does it make sense for there to be an instructor blog, but not student blogs? What constitutes good practice in each of these cases? Are there cases where the blog works and a discussion board in a Learning Management System doesn't work and if so why? Should we have blogs instead of ePortfolio systems so that students can more readily develop the habit of reflecting on their work?
I know I can't answer these questions and I know a lot of people who'd like those questions answered.
Best,
Lanny
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Re: Blogs, Wikis and Podcasts? What if We're All Wrong?
I have responded: http://www.terry-freedman.org.uk/artman/publish/article_603.php [Comment]
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Re: Blogs, Wikis and Podcasts? What if We're All Wrong?
Stephen,
Here's some more flesh on the bones of this one
http://conference.naaceblogs.org/2006/02/28/computers-in-education-an-alternative-view/ Its the conference Blog where John Clare spoke in the UK,
BEst wishes
John Bidder [Comment]
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Re: Blogs, Wikis and Podcasts? What if We're All Wrong?
"If it can't be quantified, its not real"... that seems to be the rationale. To the minds of these kinds of people, nothing is valuable or even "real" unless an abstract number can be attached to it. Thus "anecdotal".. ie. direct experience/observation.. is invalid; but a test that breaks a subject into unconnected fragments is.
And whatever you do, never speak to such people about topics such as "confidence", "happiness", or "love".
Most of what is wrong with traditional education can be traced to the "only numbers are real" mentality. I agree, ignore the bastards. [Comment]
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Re: Blogs, Wikis and Podcasts? What if We're All Wrong?
John Clare wasn't talking about blogs so this is getting like Chinese Whispers - he was discussing quantifiable outcomes. In fact I tackled him about blogs at the end of his speech pointing out that if journos had more blogs allied to their pieces than they would have to raise their game. And he didn't dispute that blogs were a good thing although his idea of feedback seemed to be the letters page - how quaint!
No - his point was that all we need is the basics and not all the bells and whistles on the software and I think he had a point in some ways. However when he pointed out that he had managed to engage us for 40 minutes by nothing but a well crafted argument I wondered how well he would do in front of Year 10 on a wet Wednesday afternoon in Peckham with the same transmissive teaching strategy ;)
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Re: Blogs, Wikis and Podcasts? What if We're All Wrong?
Oh Stephen, this is rather terse and not as well reasoned as I have found most of your commentary to be. This is a debate well worth having, and a stream of discourse I find decidedly lacking within the EdTech advocacates community. I would hope that you would bring your formidible intellect to bear. We must assess impact by some means. Without assessment haven't we simply wasted a lot of effort and resources? Perhaps Mr. Clare is a bit too grounded in a "productivity" mindset, but the factory model of education has been around for a very long time. That model will not be uprooted easily. Maybe his agenda, whatever it may be, is not the one we should use to define the metrics, but the metrics should be defined. They must be defined. Assessment must occur. The stakes are simply to high.
Matthew Brooks [Comment]
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Re: Blogs, Wikis and Podcasts? What if We're All Wrong?
Oh Stephen, this is rather terse and not as well reasoned as I have found most of your commentary to be. This is a debate well worth having, and a stream of discourse I find decidedly lacking within the EdTech advocacates community. I would hope that you would bring your formidible intellect to bear. We must assess impact by some means. Without assessment haven't we simply wasted a lot of effort and resources? Perhaps Mr. Clare is a bit too grounded in a "productivity" mindset, but the factory model of education has been around for a very long time. That model will not be uprooted easily. Maybe his agenda, whatever it may be, is not the one we should use to define the metrics, but the metrics should be defined. They must be defined. Assessment must occur. The stakes are simply to high.
Matthew Brooks [Comment]
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Re: Blogs, Wikis and Podcasts? What if We're All Wrong?
Hi Stephen
There are many ways that people give meaning to their lives, including being "productive". If I experience my life as "richer" when I feel, or am found to be measurably more productive, why is it such a problem to you that you need to take this harsh tone with John Clare? At a youthful 50 I've had a long commitment to education and learning, and I don't see why there is such a problem with trying to measure certain phenomena, although I tend towards the qualitative in my work and recreational activities. Numbers are just one more way that we have to attempt to describe and understand the world, however difficult that may be, and hammering someone for believing that the attempt should be made is just as close-minded as those who beleive that everything only has meaning when it's quantifiable.
Ignore the bastards? (from an earlier reply to the post) What the hell does that mean, other than being unimaginably close-minded? I credit you with more than siding with or even seemingly encouraging any such thinking, and although I sometimes sense an unnecessarily emotional note in the many judgements and opinions that come with all those wonderful links and comments in OLWeekly, I keep reading the newsletter because it is so enlightening.
Not sure what your decision to take a hiatus is based upon, but I wish you a tranquil, perspective-enhancing period of rest and look forward to a gradual return to what you do, hopefully minus the harsh notes that I've detected more lately. The world is full of people with unique talents. Some of them happen to love numbers and that's how the world makes sense to them. Give them a break! They don't represent anything evil, just another way to try and understand the world, and they do it elegantly and beautifully sometimes.
Not an anonymous posting!
Andre Fiedeldey
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Re: Blogs, Wikis and Podcasts? What if We're All Wrong?
Hi Stephen
There are many ways that people give meaning to their lives, including being "productive". If I experience my life as "richer" when I feel, or am found to be measurably more productive, why is it such a problem to you that you need to take this harsh tone with John Clare? At a youthful 50 I've had a long commitment to education and learning, and I don't see why there is such a problem with trying to measure certain phenomena, although I tend towards the qualitative in my work and recreational activities. Numbers are just one more way that we have to attempt to describe and understand the world, however difficult that may be, and hammering someone for believing that the attempt should be made is just as close-minded as those who beleive that everything only has meaning when it's quantifiable.
Ignore the bastards? (from an earlier reply to the post) What the hell does that mean, other than being unimaginably close-minded? I credit you with more than siding with or even seemingly encouraging any such thinking, and although I sometimes sense an unnecessarily emotional note in the many judgements and opinions that come with all those wonderful links and comments in OLWeekly, I keep reading the newsletter because it is so enlightening.
Not sure what your decision to take a hiatus is based upon, but I wish you a tranquil, perspective-enhancing period of rest and look forward to a gradual return to what you do, hopefully minus the harsh notes that I've detected more lately. The world is full of people with unique talents. Some of them happen to love numbers and that's how the world makes sense to them. Give them a break! They don't represent anything evil, just another way to try and understand the world, and they do it elegantly and beautifully sometimes.
Not an anonymous posting!
Andre Fiedeldey
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Re: Blogs, Wikis and Podcasts? What if We're All Wrong?
Hi Stephen
There are many ways that people give meaning to their lives, including being "productive". If I experience my life as "richer" when I feel, or am found to be measurably more productive, why is it such a problem to you that you need to take this harsh tone with John Clare? At a youthful 50 I've had a long commitment to education and learning, and I don't see why there is such a problem with trying to measure certain phenomena, although I tend towards the qualitative in my work and recreational activities. Numbers are just one more way that we have to attempt to describe and understand the world, however difficult that may be, and hammering someone for believing that the attempt should be made is just as close-minded as those who beleive that everything only has meaning when it's quantifiable.
Ignore the bastards? (from an earlier reply to the post) What the hell does that mean, other than being unimaginably close-minded? I credit you with more than siding with or even seemingly encouraging any such thinking, and although I sometimes sense an unnecessarily emotional note in the many judgements and opinions that come with all those wonderful links and comments in OLWeekly, I keep reading the newsletter because it is so enlightening.
Not sure what your decision to take a hiatus is based upon, but I wish you a tranquil, perspective-enhancing period of rest and look forward to a gradual return to what you do, hopefully minus the harsh notes that I've detected more lately. The world is full of people with unique talents. Some of them happen to love numbers and that's how the world makes sense to them. Give them a break! They don't represent anything evil, just another way to try and understand the world, and they do it elegantly and beautifully sometimes.
Not an anonymous posting!
Andre Fiedeldey
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Re: Blogs, Wikis and Podcasts? What if We're All Wrong?
A few other musings...
http://www.mguhlin.net/blog/archives/2006/03/entry_1234.htm
Miguel Guhlin
http://www.mguhlin.net/blog [Comment]
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Re: Blogs, Wikis and Podcasts? What if We're All Wrong?
Hi Stephen
I have just started an E-Learning course in my Masters in Adult Education (University of Technology, Sydney, Australia) that requires me to join a blog and participate. What struck me whilst I was surfing to see where to start is that blogging and wiki'ing are already huge and appear to have been around for a very long time! I feel like I was late for the bus !
Nevertheless, I am on board now and have to play catch up.
Do you or any of your respected readers know how long blogging has been around ? What started off this trend ? I have designed websites before but never been involved in social e-networking. So, I will need to ask you not to mind my stubbling around as I find my feet.
It would be awesome if someone was to respond to this little blog.
Looking forward to exploring this domain further.
Cay [Comment]
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Re: Blogs, Wikis and Podcasts? What if We're All Wrong?
I think this raises a very valuable question - in which instances are tools like blogs, 'podcasts', or wikis useful? I have had the pleasure of working with pedagogy 'experts' who want to apply blogs, podcasts, wikis, streaming video, online chat, etc to every project/course they work on. Ironically, these pedagogy 'experts' usually seem to have no rationalization or specific application for these tools in mind, only that the course/project in question 'should have them', and that as a general rule, we should use as many of these tools as possible, as often as possible. Were I to take an extremely cynical view, I might begin to suspect that for said 'experts', it is more important to be able to say they 'developed' and deployed new technoligies/tools X,Y,and Z, than to have actually improved the learning environment in question.
It almost seems that using these tools becomes an end unto itself, whether or not they are appropriate or beneficial in a given instance. Surely there is nothing wrong with assessing the benefit/applicability of these tools to any given learning environment? In my opinion, NOT to do so increases the incidences of careerism and almost faddish techno-fetishism, and as a result may damage their percieved utility in the long term. [Comment]
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